Phil Dellio said...
Steven -- It's the Bill James fan in us that makes us want to play this game: we must be the only two people in the world who bother to nitpick over this dog-and-pony show. While I realize that the absence of any hip-hop artists has made for a gaping hole the past few years, I really don't see a strong case for Grandmaster Flash on the merits, no matter how important "The Message" is. When the time comes, Run-D.M.C., Public Enemy, Dr. Dre, and the Beastie Boys, obviously; L.L. Cool J and Eminem, probably; De La Soul, Jay-Z, Missy Elliot, Outkast, and a dozen others, too soon to say. But unless they're placing a great deal of weight on "White Lines," which obviously isn't the case, one song doesn't equal Hall of Fame. Bill Haley is also in there, which is something of a joke. (From the Hall's official bio: "Yet his impact in the early days of rock and roll went well beyond that milestone..." Yes--people are still coming to terms with "See You Later, Alligator" fifty years later.) Schoolly-D is not, and never will be, but in view of where hip-hop's been the past 10-15 years, I don't think it's farfetched at all to say that Schoolly's first LP was just as much of a benchmark as "The Message." Maybe I'd feel differently if "The Message" meant as much to me as it does to most people, and next to the likes of Blondie, the Dells, and James Taylor--who, I always enjoy pointing out, doesn't even play rock and roll (and I like him fine)--sure, why not? But I really think they jumped the gun in their understandable haste to get a hip-hop artist in there.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 01:51 PM
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Steven Rubio said...
For me, the only slam dunks of the five were Patti Smith and R.E.M. I don't know enough about Van Halen to pass judgment on that choice. The Ronettes and Flash and the Five were of the "peak" school of inductions...great at their peak, not particularly long-lasting. If I had to guess, I'd say the Ronettes got in at least in part because of the fondness of a lot of men for Ronnie Spector, with a tip of the cap to Hal Blaine's drums on "Be My Baby."
Which leaves the hip hopsters. "The Message" is the high point, but they had some good party-style tracks before they got serious, "White Lines" is terrific. But those belong to the Five, in particular to Melle Mel...I'm not sure that Flash is even on those tracks.
"The Message" gets credit for "first socially-conscious rap song" or whatever, but I think the real reason these guys get in first is "The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel." Which is to say, I think Grandmaster Flash is the Ronnie Spector of the group: without him, somebody else would have been the first hip hop artists to get inducted.
"Run-D.M.C., Public Enemy, Dr. Dre, and the Beastie Boys, obviously; L.L. Cool J and Eminem, probably; De La Soul, Jay-Z, Missy Elliot, Outkast, and a dozen others, too soon to say." I'm hoping my son chimes in...he's the hip hop expert in the family. I have no quarrel with the first four, although I think Eminem belongs with that group, too. Not sure De La will be there, but the others are certainly possibles. I'd say Jay-Z has already moved beyond the "too soon" label. One question is, who will be the first gangsta rappers to get inducted? I won't count Dre, who will get in as a producer...well, he'll get in as an artist, but it's his production skills that will be the reason. Off the top of my head, I'd say the candidates are N.W.A, Ice Cube, Geto Boyz, Snoop, Tupac, and Biggie. There are a few more recent ones, but I'm trying to guess the first. Geto Boyz have never been taken seriously by critics, so they're out. N.W.A might get in as a way to work both Dre and Ice Cube in at the same time, but they've only got one album that mattered, in the end. Biggie didn't last long enough...Tupac recorded a lot, but I'm not one who thinks the posthumous stuff is all that (my son will disagree). I think Snoop will be the first gangsta rapper to get inducted. And as soon as I say that, I'm sure I've forgotten a dozen other candidates.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 02:16 PM
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Phil said...
I forgot all about "Wheels of Steel," which I barely know at all but understand how significant it was. I guess that and "The Message" together make for a reasonable case. "Mind Playing Tricks on Me" got loads of attention from Marcus, and also in my old fanzine Radio On, but no, the Geto Boyz needn't wait by the phone. Too bad--I'd love to see Bushwick Bill in a tux, breaking bread with Billy Joel and Annie Lennox. Outside of Dr. Dre, I doubt that there'll be a big rush to induct anyone gangsta-affiliated. Gangstas might be the equivalent of those Colorado Rockie guys with the inflated stats: until there's a valid test case, a Larry Walker or an Andres Galarraga, it's hard to say how much support there'll be.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 03:24 PM
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Steven said...
Biggie is probably the
most highly regarded, critically. Well, I can look...Acclaimed Music has
something of a white-guy bias, but nobody else I know is so scrupulous about
collating data. They list 14 acts as "gangsta rap" that have made
their lists.
So if you consider Eminem and/or Jay-Z to be gangsta rappers, which is reasonable, and if you assume as I do that they will both get in, then it becomes a case of who might get in before them. Dre seems the obvious choice, but again, I think of him as a producer, not a rapper. Biggie only released two albums in his lifetime; N.W.A recorded even fewer tracks than Biggie, although they certainly get the "influential" vote. All of which brings us back to Snoop. He has street cred, he has sales, he has at least some critical favor. And it shouldn't matter but probably does in the voters' minds, Snoop has a different image than he used to. Heck, he did a couple of episodes of The L Word!
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 04:50 PM
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Scott Woods said...
Back to the old school for a second....I think Grandmaster Flash is worthy, and I definitely think he should be the first rap inductee (though was it just him or was it Flash & the Furious Five?--it should be all of them, really). Aside from the important singles you've both mentioned, it shouldn't be forgotten that in the first couple years of rap even existing as a vinyl medium, Flash and the Furious Five were putting out great singles consistently. "Superrappin'," "Birthday Party," and "Freedom" came before "The Wheels of Steel"; after that, they did the Tom Tom Club rip, "It's Nasty," which for a period was very well known and got them a lot of media attention (incl. a New York Rocker cover); even after "The Message" they continued the streak with "White Lines," and some good--though definitely waning in popularity by this time--followups like "New York, New York" and "Flash on the Beatbox." Obviously, to the majority of younger hip-hop fans, and probably to most HOF voters (and inductees), most of these songs are not well known if even heard of, but they definitely were big (in a kind of "underground" way) at the time, and in the years preceding Run-DMC they definitely overshadowed every other rap act releasing records. I personally might prefer the two Spoonie Gee hits of 1980, and Funky 4+1's "That's the Joint" still might be my favourite of the bunch, but the only other early rap group I can even think of that released more than a couple worthy tracks is the Treachorous Three (who spawned Kool Mo Dee), and truthfully, their impact wasn't in the same league at all.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 07:45 PM
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Scott said...
It also seems philosophically or conceptually just to me to make the first rap inductee a DJ (which doesn't cancel what I said about the Furious Five). I'm hugely in favour of philosophically/conceptually correct choices insofar as these things are concerned. To me, the minutae of stats and sales and those sorts of factors only tells a fraction of the story.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 07:49 PM
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Scott said...
By the way, in terms of "merit," I don't really see a hugely strong case for Patti Smith. Or let's put it this way, I don't see a stronger case for her than I do for Grandmaster Flash. She made a big splash with ONE album, and each successive album mattered less and less (she had one very minor top 40 hit, written by Springsteen). By the time her initial run was over, she had four albums, only one of which garnered universally strong reviews, and I'm guessing maybe two of which people still actually listen to (I don't even think there's consensus about which other albums of hers are good; they all have glaring weaknesses, far as I recall). I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, because I definitely think she belongs--again, for philosophical/conceptual reasons--even if I've come to care less and less about her personally over the years. But I don't see any obvious reasons based on merit why she shold be in there and Flash shouldn't.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 08:18 PM
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Steven said...
The thing about stat minutiae is that it helps us try to figure out who will get in, not necessarily who deserves to get in. The first gangsta rapper to be inducted will, I believe, have to be someone with at least some critical support. Acclaimed Music gives us a ballpark figure, if you will, of what the critics think of gangsta rappers. And I think the list above is pretty representative of critical thinking...consensus critical thinking, sure, but I just can't believe the first gangsta rapper to be inducted will be someone who is not on that list.
I think Eminem and Jay-Z will get in, I think Dre will get in as a rapper but the votes will be for his production, and so the question in my mind is whether or not Snoop gets in before Eminem or Jay-Z. Not talking about who SHOULD get in, just who WILL get in. Which is not always the same thing, or George Harrison wouldn't have been inducted for his solo work.
Anyway...I think Flash would agree with a lot of what you are saying...he spoke in particular about the entire culture of hip hop, and how it was sad that only DJs and rappers were recognized, that tag artists and breakdancers and the rest were all part of the culture.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 08:20 PM
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Steven said...
Patti Smith could waltz in under the "influential" category alone. First person to do a good job of blending poetry and rock and roll since Jim Morrison (if you like Jim Morrison, if not then she's the first, period). First punk to make an explicit, proud connection between what she was doing and what the Stones were doing...most punks quite rightly bashed their 60s predecessors, but Patti Smith channeled Keith Richards and Bob Dylan. First lady of punk...OK, some would argue, I can see votes for anyone from Debbie Harry to Poly Styrene, but Patti Smith was there v.early, she arrived with a startling immediacy (first "Piss Factory," then Horses, even the early singles where she again took over the 60s for punk purposes..."Time Is On My Side" and "My Generation" being the most obvious along with the inevitable "Gloria"). She's an inspiration to the riot grrrl movement...so is Joan Jett, I'm not saying Patti Smith is the only person to do this stuff, but there's so much of it, it accumulates.
As for the actual music...her comeback stuff is good compared to the comebacks of others, but nonetheless, her reputation rests on the first four albums and the early singles. I think Horses is one of the great albums of all time, and I'm not alone...those cursed archivists at Acclaimed Music calculate that Horses is the 23rd most acclaimed album ever. They've got Patti Smith the artist at #88. Nothing could match that album, and Radio Ethiopia didn't. It plays better today, because its best tracks are terrific and its worst tracks suck, so it's tailor made for rip-and-shuffle play. Easter splits the difference: it's best stuff is even better than on the previous album, its worst stuff is better, too, but it's not quite as good as Horses. It's a great album, though, worthy of a HoFer. Wave is the least successful of the four, but even it has "Dancing Barefoot," a candidate for her best song ever.
So that's me making her case. My biases are two-fold. First, while I spend so much time on shuffle play now that I barely know what an album looks like, I was raised on albums, and so I likely underestimate the importance of a band like Flash and the Five. I bought many of their 12" singles in the day, played "Wheels of Steel" all the time, but when I think about these things, I'm too album-centric. The second bias is a baby-boomer thing. Outside of maybe Bruce Springsteen, it's hard to imagine a more perfect boomer rock critic's wet dream than Patti Smith. She was an uber-punk but she loved and respected the sixties. Horses was unlike anything we'd ever heard, yet in retrospect, it almost seems like someone programmed a computer to make boomer rock critics happy and came up with Horses. The freshness of punk...produced by one of the Velvets...a cover version of "Gloria"...a long Doors-y poem/song that suddenly turned into "Land of a 1000 Dances"...even the presence of actual rock critics in the band (not just Lenny Kaye, but Patti herself). All of which is to say that I love Horses and I love Patti Smith very much, but it's pretty easy to see how people like me would overrate her greatness.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 08:43 PM
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Phil said...
Scott knows about 300 times more than I do about any hip-hop that predates Licensed to Ill and Raising Hell, and he makes a pretty convincing case for Grandmaster Flash. Once you get into the grey area beyond the Beatles and Chuck Berry and the like, I think you run into the same wall that Bill James found behind every Cooperstown argument: if you're not 100% clear on what the criteria for induction is, it's something of a subjective guessing-game. In my own fantasyland, the Pet Shop Boys and Yo La Tengo are automatic first-ballot picks (PSB 2011, Yo La Tengo 2014). I somehow don't see that happening.
Thursday, March 15, 2007 at 10:16 AM
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Scott said...
Phil's Yo La Tengo/Pet Shop Boys scenario and Steven's future hip-hop inductess guessing game makes me think the whole institution could in fact become a lot more interesting in the years ahead, given that there just aren't as many obviously dominant figures in pop music as there used to be--I mean, dominant in both a critical and commercial sense, dominant in terms of having an acknowledged across-the-board appeal, dominant in the sense of having a major impact on stuff that came afterward. Sure, there are some obvious popular-critical inductees ahead, like Madonna and Nirvana, and some critically acclaimed types will likely have nothing to worry about either (i.e., Sonic Youth). But the picture really does get pretty fuzzy from around the mid-80s onwards, and it's not hard to imagine that there will be serious fights over the likes of the Pet Shop Boys, Yo La Tengo, Liz Phair, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Smashing Pumpkins, Beck, Bjork, Outkast, Beyonce, et al. I think all those people could eventually find their way in, but none seem like obvious shoo-ins, and their support will be very fragmented.
Thursday, March 15, 2007 at 03:31 PM
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Steven said...
If I were a betting man, out of that list, I'd take OutKast if I could only choose one future inductee. OutKast, or Beck. Of the others, I can't imagine Mariah Carey will ever get in, Liz Phair's career moves were too unappreciated, Beyonce too soon to tell. A case could be made for all the rest, and I'm not the one to make it...others could speak better to their strengths.
OK, now that I wrote that, I'll look and see what Acclaimed Music says. Again, this isn't to establish the artistic merit of these acts, just to see how critics have judged them over the years. Artist rankings:
It should be noted that Acclaimed Music doesn't just collate annual polls and ratings, but also adds in the various "Best of X" thingies. Based on what I've just posted, I'm right about OutKast and Beck, Bjork is closer to being in than I would have thought, and Mariah Carey ain't ever getting in (unless they also consider the best thing she ever did in her career, WiseGirls). As for the predictive value of this stuff, a quick eyeballing tells me that every one of the top 40 artists on the Acclaimed list are either in or have yet to qualify. (#41 is Roxy Music.)
Among those eligible for the first time this year: Africa Bambaataa, Beastie Boys, Ice-T, Janet Jackson, Jimmy Page, Lionel Richie, Madonna, Metallica, Sonic Youth, and Sting. Madonna's a lock. As for the rest, I think a lot of them will eventually get in, but voters seem to change their minds over the years, so maybe Metallica won't make it right away. Sonic Youth, same thing...I have no doubt that those two bands will get in, but I don't have the slightest idea when. Sting's probably in since they don't seem to mind awarding someone more than once (it was v.weird when Stephen Stills was announced as "the two-time Hall of Famer"). Beasties also for sure, also not necessarily in first year. Lionel Richie? Maybe. Bam? I don't know, to me he's less influential than Flash and the Five. Ice-T? My son thinks yes, I don't think he has a chance. Janet Jackson is hard to call, Jimmy Page probably not.
Thursday, March 15, 2007 at 03:59 PM
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Scott said...
Do you mean Jimmy Page, solo artist? To me, that would be unbelievably ludicrous and just plain wrong (it would also just confirm my worst impressions about all of this).
I don't think Bambaata's a long shot, just because his reputation is so massive among hip-hop scholars. I like his two big singles, and recognize his momentary importance, but I don't consider him that deserving myself (the truly deserving member is producer Arthur Baker). If Bambaata gets in before Kraftwerk, then I think the committee's priorities are definitely screwed up. (Now THAT'S an induction speech I'd love to be present for. "Ladies and gentlemen, turn on your cellphones for a text message from Ralf and Florian!") I'm with you on Ice-T---he seems kind of forgotten as a musician now (he's also better on TV than he ever was behind the mic anyway).
You're probably right about Mariah Carey--obviously, the critics who vote will do whatever they can to keep her out, but do sales matter at all in this? (Is the vote split between critic types and "industry" folk, which is what I've always just assumed?) If not, then strike one against Lionel Richie as well, at least for many years to come. And Whitney, too.
Pet Shop Boys: well, if Roxy Music isn't in yet, then I guess it will be some time before Neil & Chris get the call.
Not actually being familiar with the inductee list, I'm also curious about what significant earlier artists still aren't in--and could they (or the lobbyists on their behalf) fend off some of the newly eligibles? For instance, obviously the Beach Boys are in--but are Jan & Dean? The Ronettes are now--when will someone push for the Shangri-las? etc.
Thursday, March 15, 2007 at 06:22 PM
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Phil said...
Yes, it'll definitely get more and more unpredictable as they start drawing from the '80s and '90s. If Bjork or the Smashing Pumpkins ever go in, please, put a pistol to my head. (I'm trying to think of a baseball equivalent of Bjork...if I say someone like Steven Kemp, it doesn't work, because he was actually pretty good for a couple of years.) It occurs to me that Husker Du made their first LP in '81, and were therefore eligible last year. They should absolutely go in--they're qualified in every conceivable way except for commercial success--but, I don't know, do they even have a chance? The Replacements also debuted in '81; their case is somewhat less compelling to me, but someone else might argue the reverse. I do hope they construct a special wing for Sister Hazel, Harvey Danger, Third-Eye Blind, and all those other Radio On favourites. John Popper of Blues Traveller can provide security on induction night.
Thursday, March 15, 2007 at 06:33 PM
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Scott said...
I could be wrong, but I think it'll be some time before Husker get their due (sorry!). I dunno, they just seem like a real long shot to me. I have a hunch (and it's only a hunch) that their critical support has dwindled somewhat over the years (you just don't hear much about them; Black Flag seem more revered, no?), and I don't get the feeling they've had much exponential success, either, the way, say, My Bloody Valentine or Pavement have (I mean, I'm guessing, but based on their respective reputations, I bet Loveless and Slanted and Enchanted continue to sell very respectably and much better than any of the Husker Du albums) (granted, they're more recent, but not THAT much more recent). Anyway, I don't remember hardly anyone at the record store--staff or customers--talking about Husker Du, though that stint did end six years ago, so maybe it's different now (there was more interest than in the Replacements).
Phil will probably put the pistol to MY head if a make a Bjork/Mark Fidrych comparison, so I won't...
Thursday, March 15, 2007 at 09:13 PM
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Steven said...
Pavement goes for sure, is my guess.
Somebody from SST has to go, so I suppose it depends on who was your fave. I was a Husker man myself...they're in my personal Hall of Fame, and New Day Rising is probably in my top 20 albums ever.
Neither Jan & Dean or the Shangri-Las are in. Similar artists that are in: Del Shannon and the Shirelles.
One problem with the baseball analogies...and I like to make 'em, myself...is that artists don't release new music every year. A Hall of Fame baseball player might have four peak years along with a few formative years and several fading but still good years, at the end of which they'll have a 15-year career. A rocker might have only made 7 or 8 albums in 15 years, maybe only 2 or 3 during their peak. So if we start comparing Bjork to whoever, that's a problem. Take Patti Smith, since we've been talking about her. She had her formative years, when she was doing poetry with Lenny and writing rock criticism, then she had her peak years, then she stayed home with her family for a long time, then she had a nice comeback. It's a career kinda like, say, Willie McCovey's. But McCovey doesn't have a decade-long hole in the middle of his career. People look at McCovey and they see 500+ homeruns, and they don't think "oh, but some of those homers came in off years." 500 homers is 500 homers. But Patti Smith ends up being judged entirely on four albums, and if you don't think those albums are good enough, then you don't think she belongs. A Willie McCovey gets credit for every homer, but a Patti Smith only gets credit for the homers in her good seasons.
Or take my fave, Bruce Springsteen. He's been recording since 1973...in the ensuing 34 years, he's released a grand total of 14 new studio albums. Even if every one of them was a classic, which isn't true, he wouldn't compare well to a baseball superstar, because the baseball player wouldn't spend 2/3 of his career sitting on the bench.
Here's a sabermetric version of this discussion. There are some players who will never get into the baseball Hall of Fame, but who are highly regarded by stat heads. Not talking someone like Ron Santo or Bert Blyleven, whose names are always in the public eye. I'm talking about someone like Bobby Grich or Darrell Evans, guys whose production makes them Hall-worthy, or at least worthy of discussion, but who are off the HoF map for a variety of reasons. So, who is the Grich or Evans of rock and rollers? The people who had a few top ten hits but never made #1, who made several albums that finished relatively high in critics polls but never made the top ten, who sold enough to make a profit without ever making the Forbes list. It would have to be someone who wasn't a critic's darling, because they could sneak in on that basis (yes, I'm thinking about you, Sleater-Kinney). I guess it's someone like Roxy Music, who could be the 41th most acclaimed artist ever and still not make it into the Hall. Someone like The Specials, or the New York Dolls, or even a local guy like E-40, influential and successful but mostly ignored outside of the Bay Area.
Thursday, March 15, 2007 at 09:54 PM
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Phil said...
I wish I could post a couple of photos side-by-side (I tried but couldn't figure out how): Bjork at the Academy Awards in her preposterous swan get-up, and Fidrych on the cover of Sports Illustrated in 1977 alongside Big Bird. I hope that's what Scott had in mind--otherwise, no, no, no, a thousand times. Actually, recent comeback notwithstanding (which is only two-fifths of the group anyway), I think the New York Dolls make a very good match for Fidrych: absolutely mercurial at the outset, followed by a lengthy decline phase brought on by, um, health problems. I know the pop/baseball analogies aren't perfect for some of the reasons Steven mentions, but I think at the basic peak value vs. career value level, you can find any number of comparable pairings (underscored by one of my favourite bits of arcana, that Babe Ruth and Elvis both died on August 16). Mind you, I don't think anybody has been or ever will be turned away from the Rock and Roll HOF because of substance abuse.
Friday, March 16, 2007 at 07:12 AM
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Steven said...
Baseball doesn't care about influence, though, which can make a musical equivalent of Mark Fidrych more important than the Bird. The New York Dolls only made two albums before the recent comeback, but 1) they are great albums, 2) they are just as much a precursor to punk as was the Stooges, and 3) don't know if this counts, but if it does, the Dolls gave us two artists of import in their own careers: David Johansen is still pretty damned interesting (OK, I'm biased, I was in one of his videos once), and Johnny Thunders' guitar playing would have been even more influential except I'm not sure anyone else could ever master that amazing ability he had to sound like he and his guitar were about to fall off the face of the earth but first let me get this one last monster sludgy power chord in (David Johansen's first solo album, so good and full of songs left over from the Dolls, features a reasonably decent band, including Syl, but it really misses the near-anarchy of Johnny's guitar).
Friday, March 16, 2007 at 08:30 AM
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Phil said...
Can you tell I'm on vacation? Can you tell I'm need of what's called a social life? They've kind of boxed themselves in with this screwy idea that a number of people need to be inducted first as part of a band, and then again as a solo artist. I can think of one clear instance where it's justified: the Jackson 5 and Michael Jackson both go in. (And even there, if they had limited it to Michael Jackson--who would seem to have had more to do with what's great about "I Want You Back" than Tito, Jermaine, Murray, or Mortimer--that would have been fine.) Maybe you can also make a case for Lennon (peak value) and McCartney (career value), and maybe there's a need for multiple inductees from the whole Dominoes/Drifters/Clyde McPhatter/Ben E. King constellation. But if they do want to have it that way, I think there should be a clear demarcation between the two bodies of work: Johnny Thunders, solo artist, shouldn't get any credit for New York Dolls, and the New York Dolls shouldn't get any credit for So Alone. Otherwise, each of them feeds off the other exponentially, and anyone who ever took part in a band/solo artist career at either end (i.e., Bruce Palmer and Dewey Martin end up getting credit for every Neil Young album) gets a significant advantage. There's one obvious case where influence played a part in someone's Cooperstown induction. Jackie Robinson would have been an automatic first-ballot pick on the merits alone, but I'm sure that in the minds of voters, he got at least some credit for the careers of Mays, Aaron, and every other great black player who followed in his wake. But generally speaking, no, influence doesn't matter when screening baseball players. Maury Wills was a (borderline) borderline case on the merits, and if influence mattered (and substance abuse didn't), he'd be in the Hall of Fame. He isn't.
Friday, March 16, 2007 at 04:26 PM
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Scott said...
Have we scared every last citizen of Rubioville away yet? I shudder to imagine what the others must be thinking...
Lennon & McCartney: I agree that a credible case can be made for their dual group-solo status. And though the Drifters/Dominoes/etc. "constellation" has always confused me somewhat, I assume there's a case there as well (albeit not as obvious as the Beatles/ex-Beatles). Beyond that, it's hard to come up with worthy solo-group candidates, based on Phil's entirely reasonable demarcation criteria. I wouldn't have a problem with the following:
*
Buffalo Sprinfield/Neil Young (the former is kind of borderline in my view)
*
Simon & Garfunkel/Paul Simon
*
Cream/Eric Clapton (though I don't personally care for anything Eric Clapton
has ever put out under his own name--at least not that I can think of offhand;
I like a fair number of Cream, Derek & the Dominoes, and Blind Faith
tracks, but solo, he strikes me as just about the most boring human being to
walk the planet in the last 40 years)
*
Supremes/Diana Ross (maybe Ross is borderline, but I think she had enough of a
solo hits career, spread out over a decade, to merit inclusion eventually;
she's in many ways an underrated seventies disco artist)
*
Stooges/Iggy is a stretch in my view, though I do love those Berlin albums
lots, so maybe I'm okay with that one as well
* Velvets/Lou Reed--I'd make the case in the sense that Lou's solo career has been interesting and weird and distinct enough, even if I only like parts here and there; Velvets/John Cale is probably more just, though it won't happen.
Police/Sting? Psshhhhaw. Sugarcubes/Bjork? Hmmm.
The most meaningful (to me personally) group/solo combination I can think of is Roxy Music-Bryan Ferry. I'd like to believe Roxy will make it in to the HOF eventually, but as long as the institution exists in Cleveland and not in Portsmouth or London, solo-Ferry won't even come close, never mind that he'd be the first inductee who wouldn't even need to rent a tuxedo. It's not that I couldn't choose between Roxy Music and Bryan Ferry (I'd go with Roxy, ultimately, at least when examining their respective peak periods, album for album), but the point is that they're both in my personal canon and would be even if the other didn't exist, which I'd suggest is as good a measure of the demarcation principal as anything. I wouldn't say the same of Beatles/solo Beatles, truth be told.
Thanks for the back and forth, you guys, it's been way more fun thinking about all this than I would ever have guessed. (It's been a kind of downer week, so I'm grateful to have had something other than real life to think about.)
Friday, March 16, 2007 at 10:26 PM
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Scott said...
Clarifications:
By my last Beatles point, I obviously meant to say that it's solo Beatles who don't mean much to me, though I like a bunch of singles, and if there could be one collective induction for "solo Beatles" I'd be in favour of that.
Eric Clapton: He's an odd case the more I think about it--maybe an exception to the demarcation rule. Cream belong there, for sure (I think they're historically important enough, if nothing else). Solo Clapton doesn't (well, in my view--the fogies would disagree), nor do Derek & the Dominoes or Blind Faith. I think a very strong case can be made for Clapton, however, if you allow that those two groups were basically his vehicles (I don't know if his involvement in the Yardbirds confuses things or solidifies the argument; I'm not really sure which of their material actually features him). There's probably an auteurist connection of some sort.
Friday, March 16, 2007 at 10:47 PM
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Steven said...
I don't mean to be rude...well, it ain't like Slowhand is gonna stop by and see this...from an artistic standpoint, if he'd OD's after Layla, he'd be right up there with all the other '60s icons who croaked. The Yardbirds were my favorite group when I was a kid, although without knowing it at the time, it was the Jeff Beck Yardbirds I liked best. Cream...well, FWIW, our garage band tried v.hard to be like Cream. I don't know how well that band's music holds up, although of course I like the pop psychedelia. Blind Faith at the time wasn't seen as a vehicle for Clapton...Stevie Winwood was his equal in that band, not to mention Ginger Baker.
But Layla...I love that album so much, I pretty much forgive Clapton for everything that's come since. And in my book, what's come since is almost completely crap. 461 Ocean Boulevard was nice, he can still rip off a great solo, but basically it's all a waste.
It kinda makes you wonder...if Jimi and Janis had lived, would we be saying the same thing about them? My guess is Clapton would fare the worst of the three. He can play the blues until he dies, but that JJ Cale influence was fatal in his case. Jimi would still be innovating...he'd probably jam with Sonic Youth. Janis would be a broad...doing a tour with Etta James. She wouldn't innovate, but she'd entertain. So you'd have Jimi the artist, Janis the entertainer, and Eric the one who puts you to sleep at the end of the night.
But for one album, he was the shit. OK, Duane gets a lot of credit, too, but then, he's another one I'm a sucker for who didn't live long enough for me to get tired of him. And Jim Gordon wrote the piano part for "Layla" so he gets a lifetime pass, too.
Friday, March 16, 2007 at 11:05 PM
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Phil said...
Every time I think I'm out, Steven pulls me back in...I don't think some of these posts through enough before putting them up. Clapton is a definite case where duplicate and triplicate inductions are required. On the whole, I'm a bigger Cream than Yardbirds fan--it's close--but I'm glad they're both in. And though I know very little of Clapton's solo work (favorite: "Let It Rain"), and never had much feeling for Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs, common sense tells me he belongs there on his own, too. He's the clearest counter-example to some of what I wrote in my last post: I think you have to give him partial credit for a whole bunch of different projects along the way (in addition to everything already mentioned, there was also Delaney & Bonnie). I'd probably also endorse Lou Reed on his own: lots of career value, with two huge critical successes (one of which, Street Hassle, I like a lot, and the other, The Blue Mask, not much at all) included. Even though Paris 1919 is my favourite solo-Velvets LP, I'd be hugely surprised if Cale ever got in. I'll leave Bryan Ferry to Steven and Scott; honestly, I just don't see where he's had a huge impact outside of Roxy Music. Which segues into something we haven't mentioned: while the Baseball Hall of Fame only makes sense as an American institution, a British Rock and Roll Hall of Fame would undoubtedly look very different once you got into the second tier of inductees. Two names that immediately come to mind are Marc Bolan and Nick Drake; also, we wouldn't be debating about whether or not Roxy Music belong...Nothing to do with anything, but I was at Toronto's Cinematheque tonight for a screening of Two or Three Things I Know About Her. A couple of quick comments. 1) This somewhat loud and obnoxious guy arrived with his wife and friend 10 minutes before start time and sat in the row in front of me. Just before the film was about to start, I caught the following: "Tonight's film? Um... Two or Three Women? Two or Three Things Women Know?" I'm not sure if I hated him more or less after hearing this. 2) In the scene in the restaurant where the student quizzes the writer, there's one of those old-style table jukeboxes sitting center-frame between them. I strained and strained, and was able to make out one of the selections: bottom left-hand corner, the Beatles "Girl" backed with "Drive My Car." I was so proud of myself.
Saturday, March 17, 2007 at 09:07 PM
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Steven said...
You have to be careful with that kind of thing. I remember watching The Royal Tenenbaums, and when Gwenyth Paltrow puts on the vinyl Between the Buttons and "Ruby Tuesday" follows "She Smiles Sweetly," I was thrown completely out of the movie, because I couldn't quit thinking "that song doesn't come after that song!"
Which leads me to the next anal question: how did they get "Girl" and "Drive My Car" on the same single?
Saturday, March 17, 2007 at 09:23 PM
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Phil said...
As excellent as Fast Times at Ridgemont High is in almost every way, I always have a similar problem with one detail of Ratner and Stacy's big date. In the previous scene, Ratner's been schooled in Damone's five rules for bedding down girls, one of which is to always have side one of Led Zeppelin IV at the ready; cut to Ratner and Stacy in the car, and he's got "Kashmir" on the tape deck. I'm never sure if it's Ratner or Amy Heckerling who messed up...I had to look hard, but I'm 99% sure it was "Girl" paired with "Drive My Car." I couldn't find a listing for any such single in either Billboard's Top 100 book or Goldmine's 45 price guide, but I'd point out three things: both songs did appear on the British Rubber Soul; this is a French jukebox in a French film, so who knows what was pressed over there; and I'm guessing that record companies at the time issued certain singles meant only for jukeboxes.
Sunday, March 18, 2007 at
12:30 AM
(Originally published in the comments section of Steven Rubio's Online Life)
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